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Brexit 1.01

Wooster

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on: October 19, 2018, 10:45:00 AM
Trying to get my head around what's currently going on.

17.4m voted to leave
16.1m voted to stay

England voted to leave
Wales voted to leave
Scotland voted to remain
Northern Ireland voted to remain
Gibraltar and IoM voted to remain

We're still negotiating the 'how we are going to leave' part, not the trade deal part yet

The 'Backstop'
If I get this right....

The backstop is designed to avoid a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic while the next part (the actual trade deal) is going on, because almost everyone involved thinks it'll take far more time than we have allocated
The DUP hate this idea because if the trade talks fail and the Backstop is still in place, it moves the NI border into the Irish Sea/Firth of Clyde, essentially distancing NI from the rest of the UK

And....when we eventually move onto the actual trade talks

Of the 17.4m who voted to leave (and this appears to be the biggest problem of all)
Some want a hard 'WTO rules/no deal' Brexit
Some want a Canada+ (++ or Super Canada, depending on who's saying it) deal
Some want an EFTA (Norway) type deal (as do some of those who voted to remain, as a compromise position)

Is that about right?

-edit- Maybe we need another referendum with four questions on the ballot.

(Do you want:)
1: No Deal
2: A Canada+ Deal
3: A EFTA Deal
4: To Remain

...at least we'd know.  :wink:
« Last Edit: October 19, 2018, 02:27:35 PM by Wooster »


richietog

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Reply #1 on: October 19, 2018, 11:29:43 AM
4 To remain, its a whole lot less complicated for the UK. The Brexiters don't know diddly squat how the EU is run. Quite a few of the Brexiters want another referendum on the basis the campaign was run as a fraudulent campaign, and the NHS bus slogan was an appalling lie

I'm sure the US wants us to go hard, because they get a super deal from UK, at an enormous costs to the UK with hardly a superior quality that they get over there. I'm also meaning that they want to take our NHS and turn it in for  something for themselves


Wooster

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Reply #2 on: October 19, 2018, 02:26:39 PM
That wasn't a poll btw...only an example.  :wink:


Wooster

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Reply #3 on: November 14, 2018, 07:07:43 PM
Crunch time approaching and cabinet still in session.

Semantics though.
We had "no deal is better than a bad deal" for ages, which has metamorphosed into the caveat position of "a good deal is better than a bad deal" (no way?..really?), but it's all semantics.

Regardless of which way you voted, we've yet to hear that it's remotely likely to result in a "beneficial" deal for the UK, which was the Brexiteer promise for leaving in the first place.

I still maintain that we should have treated the European Elections more seriously, in order to elect far more capable people than Farage etc. to argue our position.


An opportunity squandered....like so many other British interests over the years.


Glamdring

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Reply #4 on: November 14, 2018, 09:44:42 PM
During the English Civil War (in which the Scots played an important part fighting for the Roundheads), families were driven asunder. Father against son, brother against brother. The same is happening now. I hardly dare mention Brexit to my sister if I don't want a diatribe. We disagree entirely, so since I'd like to maintain my sibling relationship I don't discuss it and if she brings the matter up I nudge it aside as far as I can. Annoying because in every other respect she's pretty bright... ;)

And now we have an agreement. Wonder what'll happen now.


Wooster

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Reply #5 on: November 14, 2018, 11:54:58 PM
The English civil war was a sectarian issue (Protestant v Catholic) and I think it started in Scotland.

How did that turn out?




Glamdring

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Reply #6 on: November 15, 2018, 10:52:51 AM
Certainly not sectarian in the way the Troubles were in NI.
Charles wanted more Catholicism, the other powers wanted Protestantism but it was way more than that. Charles' profligacy played a major role. As I pointed out it split families who were of the same religion, broke friendships and the rest.
Oddly, the Covenanters were Presbyterian, and yet:
Quote
The end of the civil war in Scotland. The first English Civil War had ended in May 1646, when Charles I surrendered to the Scottish Covenanter army in England. After failing to persuade the King to take the Covenant, the Scots finally handed him over to the commissioners of Parliament in early 1647.
This in turn led to Cromwell's ugly Puritan rule and the horrific things he did in Ireland. He only lasted eight years and his body was quartered and spread about the land. Charles II was brought in (not that he was any good) and things proceeded as normal until he was chased away and William and Mary took over and life improved.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2018, 10:55:53 AM by Glamdring »


Wooster

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Reply #7 on: November 15, 2018, 12:19:43 PM
We got rid of a Catholic monarch, who was eventually replaced by a Protestant monarch who arrived with an invasion force.
So it was a sectarian conflict, whichever way you want to cut it.

Anyhoo, we have resignations aplenty today.

Dominic Raab stated that he's been working hard to get a good deal.
His tenure could be measured in days though.  :rolleyes:


richietog

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Reply #8 on: November 15, 2018, 08:37:08 PM
Rees-Mogg is an annoying tit
https://www.esquire.com/uk/latest-news/a22513246/jacob-rees-mogg-claims-we-might-not-see-benefits-of-brexit-for-50-years/

But I guess you didn’t need me to yell you that

See that Corbyn enjoyed sticking the knife into the Tory government

He is also hoping that the chaos leads to a new election, which will see him change tune on Brexit
« Last Edit: November 15, 2018, 08:41:06 PM by richietog »


richietog

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Reply #9 on: November 16, 2018, 04:44:53 PM
OMG, heard it all now

Some retarded Brexiteers claim that Rees Mogg and Farage are not the ruling class, but working "for a living". Shit, these people have more money than sense with their self interest at hand


Wooster

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Reply #10 on: November 26, 2018, 09:43:49 AM
I wonder how many people voted for the deal that's on the table?
I doubt it's many.


[PCF]Falcs

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Reply #11 on: November 26, 2018, 10:01:18 AM
Thats the thing Wooster no-ones voted for a deal all we did was stupidly vote to leave Europe not how we leave just leave so to be honest any deal we get is probably better than no deal


Wooster

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Reply #12 on: November 28, 2018, 12:05:25 AM
Are we expected to feel sympathy for Theresa May now?
That seems to be the opinion of the likes of the Daily Fail "aww it's such a shame for her and we should get behind poor Theresa who's worked so hard"

Bollocks, you reap what you sow kid.
She's the one who recklessly triggered Article 50, without considering the ramifications, and launched the good ship UK up shit creek.
Realising her mistake, she then lost months more of the short amount of time she had left by triggering a General Election, in the expectation that she'd be able to fill the boat with her own supporters, with her hunched proudly at the helm.
That tactic failed so badly that she lost her majority, knocking the rudder off the boat and managed the resulting directionless crisis so badly that the fucking propellers fell off.  :cheesy:

She was a shit minister, she's been a shit Prime Minister and we're expected to feel Sorry for her?
She can go fuck herself.  :rolleyes:
« Last Edit: November 28, 2018, 12:08:12 AM by Wooster »


Wooster

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Reply #13 on: November 29, 2018, 05:59:09 AM
May visited Scotland yesterday, to sell her deal, but blink and you'd have missed the token gesture.

She was never more than 12 minutes away from the airport (possibly less, since that's the driving time when you don't have a Police escort  :smiley:) and the only people aware of it were invited members of the press.

https://goo.gl/maps/7iVDFyEL6AD2
"Visit Scotland" - Tick


Wooster

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Reply #14 on: December 05, 2018, 07:24:46 PM
Interesting week, so far.

One of the standout (and under reported) elements of the legal advice given by the Attorney General (a long term Brexiteer apparently)...and possibly a bigger reason for the Gov's reluctance to publish it, is his legal opinion that the UK cannot unilaterally revoke Article 50.

Granted his advice was written up before the Advocate General of the EU announced that the UK can, but if some of our politicians hadn't fought the Government to find out whether it was possible or not, then the Government line would have been false. (The Government didn't want to know if it was possible and fought tooth and nail to deny the UK public the possibility of knowing this for themselves.)
Therefore, the Attorney General had no basis to advise that we would need agreement from the other EU countries.

He didn't know, because they didn't wan't to know and he's been caught blagging it.




The 'backstop' problem was already known, so not really news.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 07:33:01 PM by Wooster »


[PCF]Falcs

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Reply #15 on: December 05, 2018, 08:57:14 PM
Only people to blame for all this mess and crap is the people who voted out (most i believe probably have an iq under 10!) was always a stupid idea and now we are seeing the fruition of their stupidness!


Wooster

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Reply #16 on: December 05, 2018, 11:04:41 PM
I often wonder where we'd be now if the majority of the UK electorate had been convinced to get on board with the idea of the EU from the day they let us in and bailed us out, instead of electing complete tits like Nigel Farage and David Coburn as representatives.

Even when the likes of Thatcher was at her most anti-EU, the UK still held a lot of influence......but the Tories have finally fucked it..and probably themselves.

It's easy to blame the media (or the half dozen pricks who own most of it)...so I will.




Glamdring

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Reply #17 on: December 06, 2018, 11:52:27 AM
The problem I've always thought was that in the early 70s the War still glowed brightly in the minds of many and that set us apart from the Continent. We just didn't trust the French, especially when de Gaulle said he'd oppose our joining. After all the support and help we give him during the War. That went down very badly here.

We had booklets and leaflets galore extolling the virtues of joining such that when the vote came I voted In, my first ever vote. I was still in school. But we voted for an extended trading partnership, not a European federation with political rule from Brussels. The devil only slowly emerged from the depths.
Then came the CAP, something we didn't understand, and the fact tiny French farms were given a fortune to keep running when they were wholly uneconomic. France, being a major player, got its way and our money went directly to them. We didn't see, though it did exist, money come from the EEC, to our farmers.
And then came the ECJ. Oh, how much bother that has created here. Ten years to get rid of that lunatic muslim, the one with no hands, because they kept stopping us from deporting him for the stupidest of reasons. That cut deeply into our sense of self-rule.
And then came 2008 and Greece, which cost me personally thousands of pounds.  The Greeks got loads of money they'll never pay back. Not that much from us, mostly from Germany but the principal was there. Spain too, and Italy, vibrant countries well capable of taking care of themselves but they don't because they have a rubbish tax system, so they are net takers.
The thing is we never saw what the EU gave us, we were only shown the negative side - down to the anti-EU media and the scabby Murdoch and his slimy son.

The rest of the world is laughing, and that hurts.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 11:54:34 AM by Glamdring »


Wooster

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Reply #18 on: December 08, 2018, 10:53:08 AM
Michael Howard says we should just stop checking lorries to prevent tailbacks after Brexit.
If the French decide to do the same thing our primary import will probably become human males from the Middle East and Africa.  :cheesy:


Splinter

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Reply #19 on: December 08, 2018, 11:19:56 AM
If May goes after the vote, who would replace her?
Is Boris waiting in the wings for just this opportunity?


Wooster

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Reply #20 on: December 08, 2018, 01:56:46 PM
He's not that popular in his own party, it'd probably someone they could all compromise on.


Fambly Guy

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Reply #21 on: December 09, 2018, 11:38:55 AM
Maybe if Gordon Brown stood by his instinct on Europe this mess may have never happened.
He didn't want to sign the Lisbon Treaty, centralising The EU further. He sent David Milliband in his stead to the official ceremony and later signed the treaty with the other leaders as witness in private. I think he knew it was taking us in to deep. Somewhat ironically the LT also realised a country's legal right to exit The EU. Brown knew the furthering removal of national governmental say in The EU, holding power over to an ever evolving federal superstate would cause issues further down the line. He was right.

That's just a theory of mine though.

At the end of the day those who wish Brexit tend to be in businesses that are restricted to trade individually with other markets, those that stand to profit most.
And if not they wear Burberry, own pitbulls and hate those cunts that steal "their" jobs that they're not prepared to do.
I wonder how many of them realise that Farage is one of only two MEPs that refuse to declare his financial interests.  How many leavers that still wish to leave know of Mr Farage's links to Damien Lyon Lowe and how together they used Lowe's Survation group and insights to manipulate the money markets causing the pound to crash on referendum night. Farage and Lowe made an alleged killing. Goal complete, money made, time to step down as UKIP leader and let the real bigots get on with hating people.

New referendum to remain, that's the only decent option AFAIC.


Glamdring

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Reply #22 on: December 09, 2018, 10:07:51 PM
I suspect those who support Farage do so only on his 'pint in a pub' image and know nothing about him otherwise. He's despicable.


Wooster

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Reply #23 on: Today at 09:06:55 AM
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-06-25/brexit-big-short-how-pollsters-helped-hedge-funds-beat-the-crash
There's a notable lack of any investigation into this.


Anyhoo
If you order a steak in a restaurant and the kitchen serves you up a plate of dogfood, you're within your rights to refuse it.
You don't, as many Tory MP's claim, have to hold your nose and force the disgusting mess down.


richietog

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Reply #24 on: Today at 10:05:13 AM
The ECJ says that the UK can cancel without permission of tge other 27 members permission