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Brexit: Endgame?

Wooster · 315 · 14256

[PCF]Falcs

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Reply #250 on: September 11, 2019, 11:54:06 AM
They should just do another referendum with only one option remain :)


Sacked Matt

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Reply #251 on: September 11, 2019, 03:20:01 PM
The leave result in the original referendum certainly covered a massive range of possible interpretations. In the campaigns. the debates and so on, I don't think I heard anyone really admit that the intention was to crash out and indeed I know that I saw spokespeople on the leave side saying that a vote to leave would merely persuade the EU to amend our membership rules and grant us all the control we were supposedly lacking without actually having to leave at all.

To this day, I still haven't heard any benefit that we are supposed to gain from leaving that stands up to the slightest scrutiny. The only justification offered is that it is what the people wanted. A confirmatory referendum on the actual terms with the specific risks and benefits to that scenario does seem like a sensible idea - indeed if the first referendum had only been launched with an accompanying workable plan, perhaps we could have spared ourselves a lot of hassle. I suppose that is a bit like Labour's ridiculed policy at the moment, but at least it isn't a blank cheque approach.

I also enjoyed Raab's comments last week that another extension will cost us £1bn a month, a figure widely shown to be overcooked. Regardless, that's quite a bit cheaper than £350m a week. When the Tories get their way and pull us out, how long before they're justifying cuts because the cost of leaving was always understood by everyone to be so great?


Glamdring

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Reply #252 on: September 11, 2019, 05:44:26 PM
Ah, but BoJo's thrown his dummy out of the pram and called them biased. Gosh, how intelligent.


richietog

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Reply #253 on: September 11, 2019, 07:24:15 PM
Bad news for Hitler Farage, Boris doesn't want to deal with them, so even if they had a hung Parliament at the next election, the Breshit Party, if they manage to muster any seats enough to join them to form a government, wouldn't be able to do so

I can see their point, if they have a disagreement, then we might see them split from the government of the day, and cause another unwanted election.


Wooster

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Reply #254 on: September 12, 2019, 09:43:28 AM
Ope, here we go. The right wing are starting to push the line that the Judiciary are getting too political, no doubt with a view to reigning them in and changing our legal systems.
Jackboots on the streets by teatime Mother?


richietog

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Reply #255 on: September 12, 2019, 10:11:08 AM
Ope, here we go. The right wing are starting to push the line that the Judiciary are getting too political, no doubt with a view to reigning them in and changing our legal systems.
Jackboots on the streets by teatime Mother?

Its mainly trolls from the US who have vested interest in a no deal Brexit


Sacked Matt

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Reply #256 on: September 12, 2019, 10:35:18 AM
Given that Johnson spent two months telling us that he doesn't want an election, won't prorogue parliament and other lies too numerous to recall, I fully expect a full collaboration with Farage's rabble to be in place.

How any of those Etonian, Oxbridge etc tosspots have the audacity to talk about the establishment suggests that this country's understanding of irony is rapidly heading to that of our friends across the Atlantic.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 10:56:10 AM by Sacked Matt »


Wooster

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Reply #257 on: September 12, 2019, 11:14:28 AM

Its mainly trolls from the US who have vested interest in a no deal Brexit

No it's not. The EU Anti-Tax Avoidance laws that are due to come into force are the primary motivation of the likes of Mogg and Farage.


Sacked Matt

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Reply #258 on: September 12, 2019, 12:03:28 PM
So taking a quote from BBC News with comments from Johnson:
Asked whether he had lied to the monarch about his reasons for the suspension, he replied: "Absolutely not."

He added: "The High Court in England plainly agrees with us, but the Supreme Court will have to decide."

Firstly, that must be confirmation that he did lie to the monarch. That said, I imagine she was as able to see through the lie as readily as anyone. Saying no wasn't really an option.

Secondly, and this does depend on if his comments were made directly in the order they are portrayed, I thought that the High Court's verdict was that it was not their place to interpret the governments use of its power in this circumstance. He seems to be implying that the previous decision was arrived at because he has acted with truth and integrity in the whole matter. Why the High Court in England's opinion is referred to anyway is extremely questionable too, since that verdict is legally inferior to yesterday's - but he wouldn't want to miss a chance to spread more division.

Finally, the constrant stream of criticisms, implicit or direct, of the judiciary from the government (and in May's one) are so irresponsible. It does feel like the Daily Mail is going to be getting ready to dust off it's old Hurrah for the Blackshirts headline at some point.


Wooster

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Reply #259 on: September 13, 2019, 10:13:59 AM
Scottish Judges ruling in brief. (SKY News and BBC News 24 haven't mentioned any of this so far)

Carloway:  “The decision to prorogue in the manner sought was taken against the background of the discussions in which it was being suggested that MPs, and thus Parliament, would be unable to prevent a No-Deal Brexit if time was simply allowed to elapse, without further legislation, until the exit date.

“Put shortly, prorogation was being mooted specifically as a means to stymie any further legislation regulating Brexit.”

Young: “I am of the opinion that the decision to prorogue Parliament for five weeks out of the seven remaining before the United Kingdom is scheduled to leave the European Union leads inevitably to the conclusion that the reason for prorogation was to prevent Parliamentary scrutiny of the government. I find it impossible to see that it could serve any other rational purpose.”

Brodie: “When the manoeuvre is quite so blatantly designed ‘to frustrate Parliament’ at such a critical juncture in the history of the United Kingdom I consider that the court may legitimately find it to be unlawful.”

“What has led me to conclude that the court is entitled to find the making of the Order unlawful is the extreme nature of the case.”
« Last Edit: September 13, 2019, 10:18:40 AM by Wooster »


Glamdring

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Reply #260 on: September 13, 2019, 05:56:03 PM
Who could fault those decisions?

I find Sky mobile news, the reports and articles, to be much better than anything they broadcast.


richietog

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Reply #261 on: September 18, 2019, 08:44:11 PM
Labour's position on Brexit is strange, it's a well known fact that Corbyn wanted the UK to leave EU, we have Emily Thornbury's position saying that if we stayed and had a deal themselves, she would also vote against it. I don't get it, its very strange indeed


Wooster

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Reply #262 on: September 18, 2019, 08:56:38 PM
He'll be following the Unions, they don't like Europe because it's putting them out of a job. (If the EU enforces workers rights, there's no place for Unions)


richietog

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Reply #263 on: September 18, 2019, 09:57:42 PM
Some will do better than others, unfortunately

The whole thing is made worse by that fucking ranting Farage who seems to insult people because he is friendly with Trump. He even called the Conservatives' junior press office a "pipsqueak" because his offer to the Conservatives was turned down. The guy really thinks the public will tolerate that sort of nonsense from him


Wooster

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Reply #264 on: September 18, 2019, 10:02:05 PM


richietog

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Reply #265 on: September 18, 2019, 10:43:23 PM
Whatever the outcome of Brexit, I think we need a codified constitution. Enough of this squabbling, enough of the uncertainties, enough of one subject being the headline on TV all the time

I was aghast that the UK doesn't have one, and yet its regarded as the Mother of all Parliaments


Glamdring

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Reply #266 on: September 19, 2019, 06:21:25 PM
We've never needed one. Almost every other country you can think of has been created at a certain point in time. The UK did come into existence in `1707 with the Act of Union but really we been around since the Romans, evolving, developing rules and protocols. Yes, altered by William and his cronies in 1066 and the Magna Carta later, but they were agreements that just added to what we already had.
You're right though, but then look at the US. They began with a constitution, which as since been changed, amended, adapted and changed to the point it hardly reflects what the original one set out to be.


Wooster

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Reply #267 on: September 19, 2019, 06:46:08 PM
You could maybe have an English one, but probably no chance of a UK or even British one.

For instance, you'd maybe want the Monarch du Jour to be sovereign, but it's not going to happen in Scotland and for a sizeable part of the population of NI.


richietog

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Reply #268 on: September 19, 2019, 10:57:58 PM
To some people, it looks like we're just making things up with a Parliament that isn't codified, but in some respect I think some of it is made up, just didn't notice until now


Wooster

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Reply #269 on: September 24, 2019, 10:45:38 AM
Boris just got humped.


Sacked Matt

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Reply #270 on: September 24, 2019, 01:06:04 PM
If Johnson had any shred of decency he would resign. I don't think the entire cabinet could scrape together that shred if they were combined though.

Not just that, but Labour pushed through their agnostic stance for the next election based on a disputed call on a show of hands. Johnson will get his election, win it and continue trashing the country.


Wooster

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Reply #271 on: September 24, 2019, 04:24:43 PM
The Tories, Labour and LibDems could be wiped out in Scotland, given their various stances, if there was a GE. Welsh Nationalism is on the rise as well apparently.

Then you have Cameron pissing off Queen Liz (twice) and Boris embroiling her in illegal parliamentary activities.

It's fucking hilarious.. :cheesy:
I can't wait until they bring out the wee car that falls to bits.

p.s. If Scotland had voted to become Independent in 2014, Scots Law and the Supreme Court would never have come into play, so the rejection of Gina Millers case would have stood.
(The UK Supreme Court was introduced to resolve the primacy of Scots law in civil cases. Before that the only route of appeal was through the House of Lords)
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 04:35:12 PM by Wooster »


Sacked Matt

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Reply #272 on: September 25, 2019, 11:52:49 AM
I hadn't really worked out the position (or more like the existence) of the Supreme Court - at least it wasn't another thing I had forgotten from my legal framework exam from twenty five years ago. I had been wondering why the government wasn't simply going to take it on to the Lords now.


Sacked Matt

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Reply #273 on: September 30, 2019, 12:53:57 PM
So there don't seem to be much support for leaving in this thread, but can you even imagine how the country is supposed to `"come together once Brexit is done" as appears to be the constant refrain we're fed in every interview and news story at the moment? Personally I consider the govermnent's efforts to be unforgivable vandalism against the UK, but there will be people who would feel just as aggrieved if the whole thing was binned. I am sure large elements of those that voted to leave will be upset either way too because they expected a harder or softer exit than may eventually transpire. Who is actually going to be any happier as a result of this?


Glamdring

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Reply #274 on: September 30, 2019, 06:23:12 PM
I'm fairly sure if they binned it there would be literal rioting in the streets like the French Yellow Jackets, or worse.